“The Crown Games of Ancient Greece: Olympics, Athletes, and Panhellenic Contest"
Dr. Dave Lunt is an associate professor of history at Southern Utah University. His research focuses on the history of athletics in ancient Greece and his published articles include articles on the role of sports in ancient Greek, the campaigns of Alexander the Great and the myth of Prometheus.
Fluent in both Latin and Greek, Dr. Lunt enjoys infusing his classes with culture, history and a sense of wonder for the ancient world. His research has taken him all over Greece and Italy focusing on how ancient and modern athletics reflect and interact with society, religion, culture, social issues, politics, and mythology.
Reflection
This APEX season’s Faculty Distinguished Lecturer was Dr. David Lunt, Associate Professor of History at SUU, specializing in ancient Greece, ancient Greek athletics, and the history of the Olympic Games. His research has taken him all over Greece and Italy, studying how ancient and modern athletics intersect with society, social issues, culture, religion, politics, and mythology. Dr. Lunt was introduced to the stage by James Sage, SUU Associate Provost and Associate Professor of Philosophy.
Before leading the audience through a journey through ancient Greece culture, society, and mythology in his presentation, Dr. Lunt took a minute to acknowledge a few people, especially his wife, whom we led audience applause in recognition of. Lunt’s presentation began with a reading from his upcoming book, The Crown Games of Ancient Greece, and noting on the also upcoming 2020 Olympic Games, and the differences between the Olympic Games of ancient Greece and those of today. He continued on to talk more about the games themselves as he described the athletic and competitive culture of ancient Greece, and made his first major point: each of the four games (The Olympic, Pythian, Nemean, and Isthmian Games) served as a place to unite the Greek people together, regardless of religious views or differences.
Dr. Lunt’s next points revolved around how the games themselves were bigger than their athleticism. They served as something that all of the Greek people had in common, and for a time, found themselves in a brief time in peace as everyone gathered from all over to see the games. From the worshipping of the Greek gods to the prohibition of women participating or observing the crown games, Dr. Lunt took the audience on a fascinating tour through the history of the ancient Greece crown games, from beginning to end, showing to everyone not only the historical importance of the crown games, but also their cultural, social, and religious impacts as well.
- By Emily Sexton
Dave Lunt Podcast Transcript
[00:00:00] Hey, everyone, this is Lynn Vartan and you're listening to the A.P.E.X Hour on KSUU Thunder 91.1. In this show, you get more personal time with the guests who visit Southern Utah University from all over, learning more about their stories and opinions beyond their presentations on stage. We will also give you some new music to listen to and hope to turn you on to some new sounds and new genres. You can find us here every Thursday at 3:00 p.m. for it on the web at suu.edu/apex. But for now, welcome to this week's show here on Thunder 91.1.
[00:00:45] OK. Well, welcome in, everyone. This is Lynn Vartan. This is KSUU Thunder 91.1. You're listening to the A.P.E.X Hour. Today's event was our annual Faculty Distinguished Lecture, and I am so happy to have in the studio with me Dr. David Lunt, who is our 2020 Faculty Distinguished Lecturer. Welcome, Dave.
[00:01:05] Thank you, Lynn. I'm glad to be here.
[00:01:07] You've been such a hit and it is such a joy to be able to have a chance to talk with you more. Thank you so much for your time. And thank you from so much for your great topic. Today, we're gonna be talking about ancient Greece and the Olympic Games and all of that. So let's start by saying how - well, tell us a little bit about what you at SUU and the classes that you teach for anyone who might not know.
[00:01:30] I was happy to talk about teaching classes. So I'm a history professor in the history department here at SUU. And I teach a lot of different kinds of classes. I've taught a lot of general education classes. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. So it's this is the first semester I haven't taught the United States history survey where, that's where I know most of my students. I've had hundreds and hundreds of students. That's not really my area of deep knowledge, but I know enough to teach a general education class. And as I like it because I meet students from all over campus.
[00:01:58] Right.
[00:01:59] Usually in their first semester in there, you know, dewy eyed and excited. And by the end of the semester, they have become hardened, jaded veteran students.
[00:02:08] Jaded individuals.
[00:02:10] And the best possible way is get better at it. And I teach a world history class. You and I were chatting about that earlier. I teach a class called Western Civilization, it's sort of the history of the ideas behind, you know, that we don't really use that word "the West" so much anymore, but just ideas behind modern principles and values.
[00:02:32] So what is that change? The not using the word the West?
[00:02:36] We don't love, just as in general as a university, we don't love dividing the world into us against them.
[00:02:42] Okay.
[00:02:42] You know, these people and those people, right? And that's sort of that phrase. And I still use it because the phrase I kind of came up with was Western civilization. And in some ways, I mean, it's kind of true, right? Like something like democracy is a value shared by people all over the world. Doesn't matter where you're from or what you do. But it originated you know, democracy originated in ancient Greece.
[00:03:04] Right.
[00:03:05] And so you don't consider that to be the kind of the West, right? Like, West as opposed to the East, which is I guess everywhere else.
[00:03:11] Right.
[00:03:12] But other values kind of connected to that. Things like rationalism or my favorite, free speech. Connected to democracy. You know, these sort of values came out in our, you know, sort of germinate in ancient times. And then, you know, something like the scientific revolution and the Enlightenment and the exploration into the rest of the world by Europe. And these ideas spread around and now they're more global values. But they started in the west. And so that's a class as a class we talk about.
[00:03:40] So is that trend to sort of change that terminology? Is that is it sort of more local? Is that a national thing? Is that an international trend?
[00:03:49] Oh, I think so. I'm not, I'm not the expert expert on this. But generally, I would say it's a national trend to sort of deemphasize the traditional Western narrative, especially if you're not careful with that class. It turns into "Ra ra, Europe's the best.".
[00:04:05] Right. Right.
[00:04:06] It's not right. Democracy is great and so is free speech and things. Right. So these values are. So that's why oftentimes it's called European civilization now. I think and and justifiably and understandably, I think some schools have tried to bolster world history and non Western histories and non Western traditions, which are great. So, yes, those are the general education classes I teach and I teach a class, teach several upper division classes on ancient Greece and history, and I teach a class on ancient sport, sport in ancient Greece and Rome. Similar to what we talked about today. I teach class on early Christianity. I teach a class on sport in American society.
[00:04:46] Wow.
[00:04:47] So I'm kind of all over the place, but I see a lot of fun today.
[00:04:50] We talked a little bit about how you got into really studying the sports in the Olympics. But were you always interested in history? Was that something that germinated from a young age?
[00:05:03] Yeah. I guess a lot of times students will come in and they'll, you know, sit in the office and talk about it and trying to figure out what they gonna do with their lives. And I feel a little bad because my story is pretty straightforward. I always kind of joke about it. I say, well, some people choose what they want to do. In my case, history chose me, like I never could imagine doing anything else. I tried doing other things and I got no jobs. I just called jobs, not career. And it's just whatever. You can do that. And I believe people in the world can do that and have great, meaningful, fulfilling lives. It just wasn't for me.
[00:05:37] But how did it choose you?
[00:05:37] So I was sitting in a class at 15 years old and I was sitting in a history class, and I remember Mr. Felt, my high school history teacher, giving a class on Islamic expansion and this wandering writer named Ibn Battuta, and he wrote this stuff and I remember sitting there going, that's the most amazing thing I've ever heard. I'd like to know more. I wonder if you could get a, I wonder if there's a job out there where you just get to learn history and then it's like, well, of course, history teacher. Whatever. And here's the great part. So I went to school and I graduated from high school. I went to college, I majored in history. And then I went to graduate school and in graduate school, you know, they sort of introduce you to the profession. And I was a teaching assistant and the professor I worked for, Dr. Moreira, She says, "hey, I want you to teach one of these lectures in this big lecture hall." Old timey, you know, wooden rickety desks. And I said, OK. You know, it's one time I was terrified. And she goes, "Yeah. You're gonna teach it on Muslim expansion."
[00:06:41] Oh, my God. Come full circle.
[00:06:44] And so it was the exact same lesson. I remember at the time just going, "This is it. That's all I ever want to do. I'll do this until I get tired of it." And that's never happened. It's been 30 years now.
[00:06:52] Wow. I want to ask you a lot about teaching and there's so many things that I want to ask you. But just going back to that young 15 year old version that we talked, we hit on curiosity a little bit today in the little Q and A. And I was wondering, do you think that that curiosity was always a part of who you were?
[00:07:13] I've thought about this a little. I'd like to think yes, but deep down, I suspect no.
[00:07:19] Really?
[00:07:19] I think, I think we can cultivate it or at least it's in there maybe. And I didn't know it and it kind of wakes up. Yeah. And I think it might. And I don't know, I'm just I'm just kind of spit balling here, but I kind of think someone sometime you've got to wake it up somehow.
[00:07:35] Right.
[00:07:35] You gotta terminate that curiosity, whether it's through an inspiring piece of music or art or video of movie you watch or something you read or someone you talk to, a class you take, it can sort of wake it up. And I do think the more, you know, sort of to, you know, corrupt what Socrates said, the more you know, the more you know, you don't know.
[00:07:58] So true.
[00:07:59] And so the more I learn, the more I go, well, I know this, but oh, my gosh, there's all these other directions that I don't know enough about. And so I feel like learning is exponential. It feeds on itself. And curiosity, I kind of think is the same way about. I've got to learn more about curiosity, I'm curious.
[00:08:16] Well, that's really I mean, that's really interesting. First of all, I love the concept of curiosity kind of exponentially expanding, you know, like, like they say about wealth and this kind of thing. But that's really interesting because I hadn't really thought of it. But I do think that's true. And some people think that, you know, you're either curious or you're not, you know, and I was curious also what you thought. So do you think that that comes in, is that sort of a cornerstone of your teaching? Is that awakening curiosity in others because you're, you're a darling of the classroom. I mean, I hear all the time about your classes and how amazing they are. So I'm sort of curious about, you know, how you approach teaching, is that what you're trying to do is spark curiosity? Do you have a concept of that?
[00:09:01] I would like to, it's not a driving force because I don't, I don't want to. First off, thank you for saying those kind things. I think, It's hard for me to put myself in the seat of the students, right? But this is just what I think I could be wrong. But I think the students go, "wow, he really is interested in that. Maybe I should be interested too. He really thinks that's cool. Maybe it is cool." And so in that sense, I'd like to help cultivate it, but I feel like especially this past two or three semesters and I don't know if it's me getting more comfortable as a teacher or just kids these days, but my students are getting more curious. It's great. Oh, cool. I have some pretty amazing students and I have had over the years. I'm not trying to say anything bad about former ones, but the ones I got the last two or three semesters have just been unbelievably interesting as people and curious as students. And it just makes the class so much better because someone will say it's happened maybe two, three years ago. Someone said, "Hey, tell us," you know, there's the Winter Olympics are going on in Seoul or in Korea in 2018. The student said, "hey, tell us about to tell about the Winter Olympics. Where do those come from?".
[00:10:12] Yeah.
[00:10:12] It was a class, you know, it was an appropriate segue. And so we kind of canceled what we were planning to do that week. And we talked about the Olympics and this bigger scheme of world history. And it worked really well. And I would have never thought the students would be interested in that. I'm super interested in the Olympics, but I didn't know they were, until they started asking. And so, yeah, I guess, I guess I hadn't thought about it. But yeah, I want, I want my students more curious and maybe, maybe I could be more deliberate about evoking that.
[00:10:39] Well, I don't think you need to cause everything you're doing is right. From what I hear, you know, I want to sit in on one of your classes, but it sounds also like you, you think a little bit about maybe subconsciously about modeling and you're, you're just excited and curious and then you want to share it. Would that be an accurate description?
[00:10:58] Absolutely. Like I mean, not every day, but routinely I'll go "I cannot believe this is my job to get up and and help these students encounter these these stories," right? These unbelievable people and events from history. And maybe they are unbelievable that we shouldn't believe them all. But at least talk about why we should or should not. But there's just so compelling to me and and riveting. And, and I get to read and write about these things and talk about these things for a job. Like, I feel so lucky.
[00:11:29] That's amazing. Well, that's a great place to have our first little musical break. And we'll come back and we'll talk more about the Olympics and ancient Olympics and all of those kinds of things and get maybe some more stories out of Dr. Lunt from his research. But first, I have some music to play for you. So, you know, I tried to find something and I found some odd lute music. And I have a wedding processional from Thessaly. I don't know if I'm saying that right. Am I?
[00:12:01] You're saying it right.
[00:12:01] OK. So Thessaly is a region in Greece, right, and it's in the Odyssey. I think.
[00:12:09] Sure. It's mentioned in ancient sources all over the place. Yeah. It's known for its horses and big wide open plains.
[00:12:16] Oh, cool. So this is a wedding processional from Thessaly, it's an interesting and unusual kind of world music example. And the artist is Stelios Katsianis. So that's K-A-T-S-I-A-N-I-S. You're listening to the A.P.E.X Hour KSUU Thunder 91.1.
[00:15:15] OK. Welcome back to the A.P.E.X. Hour. So that song was a wedding procession from Thessaly and I think it originally, these are sort of like modern lute, that instrument wasn't the lute we were talking about the kind of instrument that is. So welcome back. Dr. Lunt.
[00:15:30] Thank you.
[00:15:31] Tell me about that instrument that you heard. I would say it's like an oud, but there's a Greek equivalent of it.
[00:15:38] Yeah, there's a few different ones. And I'm not a musician, but I appreciate music. Sounds like a bouzouki to me. Not a stringed instrument that they play in and I love to hear.
[00:15:49] Yeah, it sounds, it looks very similar. And I'm sure there's a lot of similarities. I mean, we find that in world music a lot, that there's a lot of instruments. I mean, see it in Asia a lot as well, that they have different versions of a similar instrument, some.
[00:16:04] It's this hypnotic music. So I know a lady who was a study abroad student - not at SUU in case anyone's worried, who went to Greece on a study abroad, met a bouzouki player in a taverna. It sounds like a tavern but it's not like an alcohol establishment, it's just like a restaurant.
[00:16:18] Right.
[00:16:19] And she fell in love with him and didn't go home. I mean, she eventually went home, but now she lives there and has two kids and study abroad gone right, I guess.
[00:16:27] Yeah. But that happens. I mean, and Greece in particular is very alluring. I mean, I've been. And I know you've been. What? How many times?
[00:16:36] I know it sounds pretentious, I can't, I can't remember. It's nine or ten or eleven, something like this.
[00:16:41] Wow. That's amazing.
[00:16:42] And tell me about your type of travel, because I think you've done some even early on, some archeological stuff there. And then and of course, now researchships. So what's a typical Grecian travel vacation?
[00:16:56] So, A Greek trip for me is, so there's a few different kinds, I've taken students before. And it's fun, but it's a lot of work. It's rewarding because you see the students super nervous when they arrive often. You know, it's their first time going somewhere. And it's difficult because the language. Many signs are written in English as well, but Greek is a strange alphabet to people. If you go to France or something, you go, well, I can sound all the words at least, but Greek is tough to read right off the bat. And then by the end of the trip, the students are feeling confident and know, you know, a little bit better what to go on. And that's a lot of planning and a lot of explaining things that that I take for granted. But things like, oh, here's how you buy a ticket on the subway or this is, the way Greeks drink coffee is different from the way you are going to probably want your coffee.
[00:17:49] Right. Right.
[00:17:50] Because the Greeks love, they'll have about a two inch sludge of coffee grounds at the bottom of it, which you're welcome to drink if you want, but is pretty gross.
[00:17:58] I know that because it's similar. We were just talking about that. I'm Armenian. It's similar to Armenian coffee. I don't know if the Greeks read the coffee grounds, but the Armenians read the coffee grounds. It's so thick at the bottom.
[00:18:09] Yes, it was makes sense because so Greece was, you know, well, occupied, I guess I'll say, by the Turks for four hundred years.
[00:18:17] Right.
[00:18:18] And that left a big mark and Greece and Turkey are still sorting out their feelings about this, but for several hundred years. And so things like the bouzouki and the style of coffee and even the way that they dress have strong connections to that other part of Anatolia, I guess we'll say, eastern Turkey.
[00:18:36] So do you have some favorite things about Greece, like apart from the historical thing? Like, do you have a favorite food that you've had there? Do you have a favorite any of those kinds of things?
[00:18:47] Oh, all sorts of stuff. Yeah. So that's the student travel. When I go by myself. I'm often in a, there's a couple libraries I go to. Which is nerdy. But these libraries are unbelievable. There are old buildings, feel like you're stepping back in time.
[00:19:00] That's the best.
[00:19:01] You know, thumbing through these books, they're all dusty pages. And then, you know, an archeological site to go and visit them. And there's a few things I love to eat and drink or see in Greece. One thing I love is, is a pastry called a bougatsa.
[00:19:16] OK.
[00:19:16] And Greek pastries aren't the best in the world, probably. I'm not an, I don't understand.
[00:19:24] You're not a foodie.
[00:19:25] No, not really. But I do love a good bougatsa. And these are just some kind of puff pastry with cream in the middle. But somehow on a hot day, they are so good and often places won't have them. So that's one of the things I like to do is just go to a kind of quiet spot and just sit and read. Amazing. You know, eat a snack like this. Greek food's great, though, right? I love it's called saganaki, it's fried cheese. Who doesn't love fried cheese?
[00:19:55] Right. Can't go wrong with that.
[00:19:56] They got this, it's great. There's an old Saturday Night Live skit about the great big bean or something like this, where they said, why eat 100 of little beans when you can have one big bean? Yeah. And they have these, these beans in Greece. They call them gigantes, right. And they're just big, great, big beans. They're not huge beans, but about the size your thumb.
[00:20:16] Wow.
[00:20:17] They're good. I don't know. You know, so, yeah, they have great food. And I love, I love listening to the bouzouki music and just pretending I'm Greek for a minute, even though I don't, I don't know modern Greek. I know ancient Greek. And they're quite different, so I'm trying to learn modern Greek, but I'm busy.
[00:20:33] Yeah, of course. Well, I'd love to talk about some of your research and the games. And I was reading a a a blog on the SUU site that was written about the things you don't know about the Olympic Games. And you covered a couple of them in your talk today. But I'd love to ask about some of the others. So the first one is that athletes competed naked, which you talked about in class and in the talk today. And I think I didn't even know that. That's just fascinating. And I was wondering, I've heard of this tradition of running barefoot. Is that, is that related at all to the early marathons?
[00:21:09] Probably not in the sense of, so the Greeks would run barefoot in their gymnasium, but the ground had been carefully prepared. I think they're watering it and they've got special dirt they bring in. It's supposed to be soft. It's not how they look. If you if you were there today, you saw some photographs. You know, today they just they're not competing in them.
[00:21:27] Right. Right.
[00:21:28] Keep them all nice and fancy, but there's special dirt that they like to use. Yeah. They would compete naked. And ithey rub olive oil all over themselves. And there's various explanations. Some people think it makes their muscles more supple. And while other people think it's some kind of crazy suntan strategy, So I haven't done a naked, but I've gone for a run before and doused myself with olive oil. It was uncomfortable. Was not my thing. Just to see. I don't know. We don't know why there's people, you know, there's one I'm thinking of, in particular, one scholar who said, "oh, it's a ritual. It's like you anoint something." It's way out there in left field. We just don't know.
[00:22:11] That's amazing.
[00:22:11] You know, these people are competing naked. And I think we have these sort of Western or modern sensibilities about nudity. And for better, for worse. Some hang ups about it in the culture, the Greeks don't have these.
[00:22:25] Right.
[00:22:25] At least not for men. They do have a strong developed sense of, of shame. And they should cover up certain private parts at certain times and women are kept fairly sequestered, ideally for them.
[00:22:37] Right.
[00:22:38] So, you know, I'm not, It's not some kind of crazy free for all full of nudists, but these people are out there exercising naked and I remember a kind of rock bottom, you know, I was reading, I've read at least two articles about athletic supporters for Greeks, so, well, they're naked, but they're using something to help keep their body parts. And I thought, I don't need to read this. I'm interested. Maybe my curiosity ran out. I'm not a prude, but I also just...
[00:23:05] That was a cap.
[00:23:06] Yeah. I don't know. I don't know if that's the direction I need to go.
[00:23:09] Right. Right. Well, one of the other things was that there was no Olympic torch. I did not know that. Can you tell me about that?
[00:23:17] Yeah. The Olympic torch is a modern phenomenon, but it isn't, what would I say? An interpretation of an ancient practice. So ancient Greeks, especially Athenians, love torch races, which I think are pretty cool. I'd love to see one.
[00:23:33] Do you mean like a relay?
[00:23:34] Exactly. It's a relay race and they have these teams of you know, they're probably young men or old boys and they would train. And there's a special group, the torch racers and it's a relay. And it would be 2 or 3 miles probably, well, maybe a couple miles we'll say. And you would run with this torch and then hand it off to your teammate. You know, other people are running with their teammates against you. But if your torch goes out, you lose or you can't win anyway.
[00:24:00] Oh.
[00:24:01] Which that's not the way we do the torch today, right? And so the torch as a modern Olympic phenomenon was developed, as you know, all sorts of sort of interesting quirks of history by Nazi Germany.
[00:24:14] Really?
[00:24:15] In the 1936 Olympics, the Nazis who liked fire - it's a symbol of fascism and strength and destruction - they decided to get flame from Olympia. And they still do this today for the modern Olympics. They will. And this is all completely invented tradition. I've seen this. It's pretty spectacular. They focus the rays of the sun. They, they get a good looking woman actor to pretend to be a priestess.
[00:24:46] Oh, my God.
[00:24:47] Wears this ancient Greek style outfit or this dress, and she holds this con, whatever. Mirror con, I guess it's convex or whatever.
[00:24:56] Yeah.
[00:24:56] To focus the rays of the sun onto this burn, you know, this little piece of kindling and they light the torch using the sun at Olympia and then they hand it off to people and it makes its way to the site of the Olympic Games. And this sort of handing it off as a processional relay. And it's not the way an ancient torch race would run. That's for speed and you want to defeat your opponent. Today, it's more like, you know, the Olympics are coming and think about it, it often has sponsorship connections.
[00:25:24] Oh, my gosh.
[00:25:25] There is one little hint of ancient, ancient tradition there that I like to think of. So after the Persians invaded Greece and this is in 480 B.C. from 480 or 479, the Persians are defeated. And it's an outstanding victory, like the one time the Greeks worked together and they fought off these hordes of barbarians and it's what they called them. I'm sure the Persians were nice, but they fought them off. But the, afterwards, there was this feeling that the country had been made impure by this big war. So, the word came out from the Delphic oracle, right? It's supposed to be Apollo saying, "Put out all your fires," all the fires in the country that the Persians had invaded or been fighting and then we're going to rekindle them all using fire from Apollo, from Delphi. They sent a runner and he got a new piece of new fire, got flame on a torch and he ran it back. It's something like I can't remember it's over 100 miles in one day there and back.
[00:26:25] Wow.
[00:26:26] You know, in a couple days probably. And maybe it's been exaggerated. It's a great story. And then from that fire, you know, they could light other people's fires and spread it. And so as the symbol of purification.
[00:26:37] Oh, my God.
[00:26:38] There's a little bit of that. There's a runner in there. But now the modern Olympic torch is not really an ancient tradition at all.
[00:26:44] That is fantastic. Oh, my God. I'm so happy that I heard all of that. I had no idea. That's just such an amazing story. Thank you.
[00:26:52] You're welcome.
[00:26:53] The other thing that I wanted to ask you about was that the Greeks thought winning could lead to immortality. And I was curious about how that all worked.
[00:27:04] All right. So for the Greeks, winning is the greatest thing. They want to win. And when you win, you get enormous amounts. It depends on what you win, right. If you win. Like me, you're going to win. You know, you might win the high score on your video game console at home, right?
[00:27:19] Right.
[00:27:20] Imagine you win these great victories, especially in athletics and especially it seems to be in athletics where you had to show immense force and power like boxing or wrestling. You know, this other sport pankration, which is kind of like boxing and wrestling mixed together. If you won enough victories, you got enormous amounts of glory and the Greek word for glory is kleos. You got this kleos that was your sort of calling card for being a great person. Kleos is connected to the word to hear, like to hear, like to listen.
[00:27:54] Oh, really?
[00:27:55] And so essentially, it's like your reputation. People are hearing about you right now. Twitter and Facebook and you know, the news and all this. ESPN highlights. This had people talking. "Oh, my gosh. You would not believe what so-and-so managed to accomplish," right? And so this reputation would go. For the Greeks, the next life is a pretty dismal proposition.
[00:28:16] Really?
[00:28:17] Right. Like we read about in something like The Odyssey, where Odysseus goes to the underworld and he runs into Achilles, who's died. Right. And he goes, "what's it like? How's the underworld? And Achilles is like, "it's the worst. It's terrible. I'd rather be the lowliest slave alive than the king of the dead." So for the Greeks, the here and the now is the time for you to make your reputation for you to get some kind of. Legacy that could live on, and so if you amassed enough kleos, and the dynamics of how this exactly happened, I mean, I've, I've poked around at it in a paper to plenty of people have how? Who decides when? Where? At any rate, a few of these athletes after they died, people worshipped them. They would pray to them. They would offer sacrifices and pour libations and give offerings and little boxes. The understanding is for the Greeks, it's not just commemoration like, "wow, wasn't that guy great?" You pray as a quid pro quo, right? You are giving something and if, or more likely they'll give you something and then you will make good on your promise, right? Like you give me, you know, heal my sister's terrible condition, and I will offer you three goats or whatever, right? And they're praying to these athletes for, the only reason that makes them so exceptional is these amazing athletic victories. So these names, you know, there's like Theagenes is a great athlete, lived on the island of Thasos and a statue of him, and people worshipped it for over 500 years. No archeological evidence for hundreds of years later, people are still stopping by, putting in a coin or saying, you wouldn't know what they were saying, but presumably saying a prayer to this great athlete who had been such a great pankratiast wrestler in his lifetime that after he died, he gained these immortal honors. So he has the ability, in theory, to continue to influence life on earth. So that's immortality for the Greeks.
[00:30:18] Oh, my gosh. I had no idea. I'm thrilled to know about that. Yeah, it's a certain kind of I mean, it's beyond celebrity. It's, it's godlike. I didn't realize that.
[00:30:28] It's supernatural. The story of Theagenes is unbelievable. I mean, literally unbelievable. But it's a great story. So one night the story goes, after he died, he still had an enemy in town. You know, this guy's a great big Olympic champion fighter, right? So this enemy would come and take a whip and hit the statue of Theagenes, like as if "finally I can get even with you." But one night, the statue falls over on this guy and crushes him and kills him. So the people put the statue on trial for murder.
[00:30:59] No way.
[00:31:00] They found it guilty. And there's other precedent for this. You know, there's a whole article on this called murderous statues.
[00:31:06] No way.
[00:31:06] Of course the statue's guilty. Not much of a defense there. They throw it in the ocean. And then, of course, terrible things begin happening to the city, right? The famine comes and the plague. And the people are like, "Oh, no. What do we do?" And they inquire the Oracle. And the Oracle basically, you know, a couple of inquiries. And the oracle says "you need to get Theagenes back." So, you know, fortunately and this is the story, right? This fisherman and they get their net caught on the statue and drag it up and they clean it up really nicely and put it back in the in the town, in the town square in the middle of the public area and everything, you know, all the bad stuff goes away and the good times are back.
[00:31:43] So that's fantastic.
[00:31:45] That's the story.
[00:31:46] That's a fantastic story. Thank you so much. That's a perfect time for another musical interlude here. So this - that I still can't get over this story. This next song that I have for you is titled "Hades". And then in parentheses, it says "Pluto" and the artist is a guitar artist that I played actually last week, also that I'm really into right now, Taimane. It's spelled T-A-I-M-A-N-E. And this song is called "Hades". You're listening to KSUU Thunder 91.1.
[00:35:42] All right. Well, welcome back to the A.P.E.X. Hour. This is KSUU Thunder 91.1, I am Lynn Vartan and I'm in the studio with Dr. David Lunt. Welcome back.
[00:35:54] Thanks, Lynn.
[00:35:54] And that song that you heard was called "Hades" and in parentheses, it says "Pluto". The artist is Taimane, T-A-I-M-A-N-E, a great guitar artist. And that other instrument that you heard is one of my favorites. We were chatting about it while it was playing, that's a cajon or a box drum that you basically sit on and play and it comes from drawers that got pulled out of a dresser. And you hear a lot in flamenco music, Spanish music, Portuguese music and film. Anyway, it was in that song. But we are here to talk about Greek sports and the Olympics. And I think many people don't know what, we have so many events now and adding, adding events all the time. I want to know what were the original events and I also kind of want to know you with your expertise, what do you think about all these adding of new events? Is that a good thing? Is that a bad thing? Talk to me about the events.
[00:36:50] Let's talk about Olympic events. So the original Olympics, right? The ancient Olympic Games in Olympia, Greece, traditionally began in 776 B.C., although that's one of those dates that archaeology has a different approach. But either way, they began a long time ago, probably closer to 700 B.C..
[00:37:10] OK.
[00:37:11] The original games or festival, it was a big sacrifice to zoos and they have a procession and probably some kind of solemn prayers. And the games weren't really games. It was one event. They did a race all the length of a stadium, which is about 200 yards.
[00:37:29] Right.
[00:37:30] And that was it. For several Olympiads or several festivals, they would just do that one time. And the story goes, whoever won that race received the right to light the sacrificial altar. And then that got popular, watching the runners. And over time, the organizers said, "well, that was cool. Let's do more." And it honors the gods and people like it. And, you know, there's all sorts of reasons. And so they started adding more. So they added another race, right? The one that goes down and back or distance race or they started doing we call, you know, heavy, eventually combat sports like boxing and wrestling. Boxing is a little different than what we have. Yeah, they wore, they wore protection. At some point later, they started wearing more protection on their hands, but not to pad the blows, but to make the blows hit harder.
[00:38:17] Oh, my gosh.
[00:38:17] So especially like in Roman times, they would put like pieces of broken glass or rocks, it was not what boxing gloves are intended. It's a good example of when we think something is just like ancient times, but not at all. Wrestling was whoever could throw their opponent like you had to throw the opponent three times, right?
[00:38:37] Oh, okay.
[00:38:38] So two out of three, I guess so. It's not, it wasn't just time. They don't have a way of keeping time, they don't have a round. You had a fighter wrestle, you know, until till it ended, until someone gave up or someone got pushed to the ground or whatever. We had the pentathlon which includes throwing the javelin and the discus. There was no javelin all by itself.
[00:38:59] Yeah, I was wondering.
[00:39:01] You know, discus all by itself. There's no long jump all by itself. Those are just part of the pentathlon. Now other places in Greece did have those sports or those events independently on occasion, but not at the games, not at the Olympian games or the other big festivals.
[00:39:16] And the discus. So the javelin makes sense from like a military thing. But the discus, was that an item that was used? Was it made up for the game?
[00:39:26] Yeah, exactly. That's a great question that historians have poked around out a little bit because there's, people have suggested, that, you know, athletic activity and, you know, sort of came out of training for war because you have to, you know, throw the spear or whatever. But more and more, I think philosophically, we say they're really different. I mean, yeah, you do want to defeat your opponent, but running really fast is not a simple report.
[00:39:52] It's not a weapon.
[00:39:53] Running away. I mean, that's my move. But running away is not what you need to do or some of those things are really artificial. Right?
[00:40:00] Right.
[00:40:01] Jumping far.
[00:40:01] Right.
[00:40:02] Discus is similar. Like the discus probably emerges just out of "Hey, how far do you think I can throw that rock," right? Eventually they standardize. And by standardize, you know, they would say "everybody throw the same rock," or whatever. But to connect it to warfare in anything other than the sort of most basic senses is probably overstating it. But sure, young people grow up. Exercise is an important part of physical fitness, which is important for fighting. And it also taught young people to be good citizens. They would spend time with the other young men their age and you know, presumably someday they'd grow up. Be more friendly or being involved in politics or whatever. So there are connections there. But yeah. The discus is part of the pentathlon and there was also running and wrestling to make up the five. So discus, javelin, long jump and then running and wrestling. And so that's the pentathlon. You have to be a good all around athlete to to do well. They also have a horse racing, equestrian events. We have equestrian stuff in the Olympics today, but it's more like dressage.
[00:41:11] Yes. Yeah.
[00:41:12] The horses doing the cool tricks.
[00:41:14] Yeah.
[00:41:14] And jumping over fences and stuff. These are, in the Greek world, it's just speed. Let's just go fast. And they had a horse racing track and presumably they're gambling like crazy on these events.
[00:41:26] Right, I'm sure.
[00:41:28] I mean, that sounds kind of fun to me.
[00:41:30] Yeah.
[00:41:30] Go to the Olympics like Las Vegas or something, right.
[00:41:34] Right.
[00:41:34] Put some money on your favorite opponent.
[00:41:35] Who's going to win?
[00:41:36] Right? But they had chariot racing and then they would they would introduce events. And if they weren't working very well, they would end them. So for a while, they had a race with a mule pulling a cart. And I would love to know more about this because, you know, these donkey carts are sometimes it's a mule. There's a different, they're different. Yeah. Some of these animals are really hard to control and train. I mean, I've worked, I've been on a donkey before. I couldn't steer this thing.
[00:42:06] Right. Right.
[00:42:07] Same kind idea. I wonder if it was more comic. I don't know. That didn't last very long. But the horse racing events is the one I mentioned in the talk that women are allowed to have some role because it's the owner who is seen as being the participant, not the person driving the chariot or riding the horse. And so women who were absent, they are not allowed to attend or watch. They could still participate. And we have a few names of women who are victorious who won championships as owners of fast horses.
[00:42:37] Well, those sound like great stories,.
[00:42:38] That kind of cool stuff, yeah.
[00:42:40] And so, OK. And then there were also musical events in one area.
[00:42:45] Yeah. We have musical events in, especially at the, it's called the Pythian Games at Delphi. So there are four places where these Crown Games are are contested. And Olympia is the big one where the Olympic or Olympian Games; Delphi, the seat of Apollo, right where the Oracle was and that's called the Pythian Games; Izmir and Noumea are the other two. But yeah, they had musical events at Delphi. They were a major part. In some cases the original or at least the show case featured component of the competition. You get up and there'd be singing competition. There was, it's called aulos and it's often translated as a flute but it's more like a woodwind.
[00:43:26] Right. It's a reed. Yeah. So probably loud and obnoxious.
[00:43:31] Honestly, I don't know. But it was supposed to have a haunting quality.
[00:43:36] Interesting okay.
[00:43:37] I don't know what that means, an oboe? I don't know.
[00:43:39] Yeah, probably.
[00:43:40] But it was, here's what I think is kind of, they had a double one where you would have two reeds in your mouth.
[00:43:45] Yes. Yes.
[00:43:46] And both your hands go and, you can't see me. I'm in a radio studio holding up two hands. And singing. You would play a little and I'd presume, pulled away from your mouth and sing a little and then put it back in your mouth. And then they had the, it's called the kithara. It's this kind of harp or lyre like instrument. So you know, pretty robust musical program to go along with the things that we would call athletic. And the word in Greek for a prize is an athlon. And so athletics is anything you do with a prize at the end. In this sense, we can call music athletic contests. Absolutely correct. Call them that in a Greek context.
[00:44:22] Yeah. Fascinating. So what do you think now? Now there's so many. Are you a fan of the adding of all of them? Or do you think there's the limit? Tell me what your thoughts are.
[00:44:33] I don't know. Fan or not a fan. I mean, I like watching the Olympics. I'm part of the, part of the millions of spectators. There is a process the modern Olympic sports and sports federations go through to get their sport approved. To be an Olympic sport, it has to be an exhibition sport and sports sometimes are taken out and reintroduced. Golf went away and it's back. Baseball, I think is gone as of right now but it's was there for a while. Golf is one of the early sports in the Olympics were women were allowed and then, you know, sort of in and out of things. I don't know. I'm not griping because I'm just watching on TV. It's not like I'm paying for this. But one of my things that makes me scratch my head is it's supposed to be in theory that modern Olympic Games are supposed to be for everybody, right? For as many countries as we can get to participate. And so in a sense, this is one of the reasons why the Olympic Winter Games or the Winter Olympics aren't as popular because there aren't as many countries that have lots of snow, even countries that do have lots of snow. I don't know very many people who grew up luging.
[00:45:36] Right. Right.
[00:45:37] It's still it's kind of awesome and death defying. Yes. It's not as much access. Everybody grows up running, or at least at, you know, recess when you're nine years old. So there is a certain amount of like, wow, is it really accessible to people? And the Olympics do claim that this is an important feature, but it also matters for television.
[00:45:57] Yeah.
[00:45:57] One of the more recent sports and by recent I mean, I'm getting old but we'll say the last 20 to 30 years, one of the big new sports is beach volleyball, right? Which I guess lots of places have beaches. But one of the reasons this is kind of fast tracked in the Olympic program was because it's great on television.
[00:46:15] It's fun to watch.
[00:46:16] It's great when lots of us have played a little volleyball, we can relate. But these are outstanding athletes. And, you know, they're people, they're typically young people wearing revealing clothing. And it's scandalous. So in the early, this isn't the case anymore, but in the early days of beach volleyball, women volleyball players had limits on the amount of clothing they were allowed to wear. Like there were maximums, not minimums. Conceivably, they could have showed up wearing nothing. I mean, that would cause other problems. But they were told, you know, "your swimsuit or whatever, you can't cover up too much." And that's changed. That's not the case anymore. This is like. This is like the 1980s and 90s.
[00:47:00] Wow. I had no idea.
[00:47:02] Yeah. There's sort of a lot of, you know, sex appeal and sexism and this sort of, you know, erotic component of sport. That is uncomfortable, but also drives eyeballs and sponsorship dollars and ratings. And, and it's, it's this big sort of complicated mess. But yeah, like beach volleyball is one of these like an Olympic sport. It's like, well, it is, but it's also a really important television revenue.
[00:47:25] Oh, I hadn't really thought of it from that perspective. That's amazing and shocking. Oh, my gosh. Well, we have one more song. I mean, I feel like I could talk to you for hours. We have one more song to play. And this is by an artist called Qais Essar. So Q-A-I-S and last name Essar, E-S-S-A-R. I've played him before. I just think he's a great world music player. He's doing some crossover things. And this song is called "Night Flight with Singed Wings". So you're listening to the A.P.E.X. Hour, KSUU, Thunder 91.1.
[00:53:27] OK. Well, that's just the tail end of that song. And I'll tell you again what that song is. Welcome back to the A.P.E.X. Hour, KSUU, Thunder 91.1. That song was "Night Flight with Singed Wings" and the artist is Qais Essar. All of this music, by the way, is on, if you want to go on the web, suu.edu/apex. Right there on the, on the front page of the site is a played on A.P.E.X Hour Spotify playlist. And so after each week, I just dump the songs that I play into that playlist. So if you're interested in the music and want to hear more, it's a completely open playlist that you can check out. And it's called Played on A.P.E.X Hour and it's linked there on suu.edu/apex. We also want to welcome back Dr. David Lunt. Thank you for being here. And we want to tell everyone about the book that's coming out. So a lot of your research is coming out really soon in a book. And tell us when and what and how to find it.
[00:54:24] OK. Thank you. I'm excited about it. So I have a book deal, I guess, a contract and a manuscript with the University of Arkansas Press. And the book is called "The Crown Games of Ancient Greece." And it's about some of these stories we've been telling and talking about, this idea of there are four big games that, you know, the Olympic Games, but also the Nemean, Isthmian, and the Pythian Games in ancient Greece and how those happen and what the archaeology looks like and what their role was in ancient Greek society. So, I'm in sort of the advanced stages. I've been through, you know, I've had some referees look it over and approve it. And I'm just working with the editor to get the things like the index done and, you know, making decisions about the formatting of the bibliography and stuff like this, right. But, you know, a little more editing and stuff, but I'm hoping it gets out later this year.
[00:55:12] All right.
[00:55:12] That depends on the publisher, I suppose.
[00:55:14] But we'll be on the lookout for it. I'm sure that we'll have some press at SUU, and I'm sure if anybody searches your name, they'll be able to find it. So thanks for telling me.
[00:55:23] Look around for it, "The Crown Games of Ancient Greece".
[00:55:26] Awesome. My last question is the question that I ask everyone, and it's just about what's turning you on this week. And so it could be anything. It could be a book, movie, TV, whatever you want. It's just kind of a fun question for our listeners. So, Dave Lunt, what is turning you on this week?
[00:55:41] Well, ever since the season finale of Temptation Island wrapped up...
[00:55:45] What?
[00:55:45] No, I've nothing to say now. I did watch all the Temptation Islands.
[00:55:49] You did?
[00:55:49] It's great stuff. Oh, yeah.
[00:55:50] Are you serious? Yeah.
[00:55:52] Oh, my gosh.
[00:55:53] I watched it with my friends in my neighborhood.
[00:55:55] I love that.
[00:55:56] Do you really?
[00:55:56] Yes. Yeah.
[00:55:58] I feel a little, dirty is the wrong word, I just feel a little guilty, right? Like these people are pretty interesting.
[00:56:05] I love it. Oh my gosh. I've seen it because it comes up in my queue for other like totally, you know, nasty, not nasty, but playful things that I like to watch. And I've always been curious about it. I had no idea,.
[00:56:16] It's great, it's tons of fun. Look up Rick. He's my favorite. Smart, he's the voice of reason. Okay, so but it's over now. And so I'm I'm a little bummed I don't have a show, go to show right now. So what's turning me on is a little more nerdy. There's an ongoing historians debate about a big project. It's called the 1619 Project. Came out over the summer, August. It's a New York Times magazine. It's awesome. This idea of 1619, you know, last year, 400 years, anniversary of when African-Americans came to the colonies that became the United States, right? So sometimes marked as the birth of American slavery. But there is this big project with essays. It's really well done and interesting. But there are these historians at other universities. You know, there's a big one at Princeton and some other places who said, "wow, some of these, some of these details are not quite as accurate. And so they're arguing back and forth. The New York Times and an essay came out yesterday on the Atlantic website, sort of laying out another one of these positions in this back and forth. And I don't care where people fall on that spectrum. Everybody agrees the 1619 Project's a great idea. Yeah. We should talk about this sort of legacy and consequences of slavery.
[00:57:29] Right.
[00:57:29] But I do love seeing historians be historians and argue about facts, matter. And, and, you know, depending on the interpretation and you know why this matters for our world today. So like I said, check it out if you get a chance, because the debate matters less than just the fact that people are talking about history in the newspaper today. It makes me happy.
[00:57:50] Cool.
[00:57:51] I'm not completely a dinosaur.
[00:57:53] Yeah, that's awesome. 1619, and the article in The Atlantic that came out today. So that's amazing. We'll totally check it out. Thank you. And Temptation Island.
[00:58:02] And Temptation Island. Watch.
[00:58:03] That's awesome. Well, that's all the time we have. Thanks so much, everyone. See you next time.
[00:58:10] Thanks so much for listening to the A.P.E.X. Hour here on KSUU Thunder 91.1. Come find us again next Thursday at 3 p.m. for more conversations with the visiting guests at Southern Utah University, and new music to discover for your next playlist. And in the meantime, we would love to see you at our events on campus to find out more. Check out suu.edu/apex. Until next week, this is Lynn Vartan saying goodbye from the A.P.E.X. Hour, here on Thunder 91.1.